Tuner Tuesday: 1983 Mercedes-Benz 500SEC AMG

1. 

   Ricky W January 21, 2014

   Actually, Penta wheels are real AMG bits. Back then, Penta, Ronal, and Rial all manufactured (what we would consider today to be) AMG wheels.

   AFAIK, the first car to have true AMG wheels (again outsourced. This time to an Italian firm) was the W124 300e 6.0

   This is an absolute beauty of a car. My favorite color on the W126. Little wonder to that, as I have an 83 sedan in this same color.
2. 

   Carter J January 21, 2014

   Ricky, AMG delivered ATS wheels – the Pentas are period correct replicas from a British company. You’re correct, Ronal R9s are also a copy if the design but they all differ slightly.
3. 

   Harrison Price January 21, 2014

   A tasty motor who will be the lucky punter to score her?
4. 

   Ricky W January 21, 2014

   Carter, ATS that’s who I was trying to think of. Thanks!

   I would snap up this car in an instant, but I don’t have any room for it. Whoever buys it will be a lucky guy. The owner of this car can be found on benzworld. He posts there regularly. Very nice gentleman.
5. 

   Mapearso January 21, 2014

   Carter —

   You state in your comments “No, it’s not an original AMG”

   Not sure what you mean? It is a genuine, documented, authentic AMG that was modified by O’Gara Coachworks. Per the ALL CAPS AD — “IN 1983 O’GARA WAS THE EXCLUSIVE AUTHORIZED AMG REPRESENTATIVE FOR NORTH AMERICA”

   Just wanted to point this out as authenticity affects the value here
6. 

   Carter January 21, 2014

   Mapearso,

   My understanding is the differential is a AMG original modified car (IE, one built in Germany by AMG) versus cars that were imported and modified by dealers – which is what this car appears to be. It seems that O’Gara installed all of the AMG components once the car was imported. If that’s the case, then similar to the Ruf cars it wouldn’t necessarily be a “genuine” AMG car, but rather a 500SEC modified with all AMG accessories. To me, the point is fairly mute, but to some it seems to make a world of difference.
7. 

   Mapearso January 21, 2014

   A 1983 Car and Driver Magazine article on an AMG 500SEL the mag affectionately dubbed “The Atomic Blueberry” talks about the early days of AMG in the U.S., and clearly calls out that in 1983 AMG had two exclusive U.S. distributors. Classic Motors in Westmont Illinois and O’Gara Coach Company in Beverly Hills California.

   To paraphrase the article —

   “AMG is Germany’s preeminent Mercedes tuning firm… whence the almighty 5.0-liter motorcars emanate. Unfortunately, their performance has been the province of other markets, never reaching the U.S. because of our tight emissions requirements….

   But several U.S. emissions-and-safety certification firms rectify this by bringing in 500-series cars and affixing the necessary hardware, thus enabling America’s well-heeled to run neck-and-neck with their European counterparts…

   This does not make Mercedes-Benz particularly happy since it is ever vigilant of its good name and thus predictably concerned with the modifications to its cars… Mercedes supports pending congressional legislation that would put an end to pipsqueak competitors by requiring them to meet certification standards set for major importers.

   One of these pipsqueak competitors is Classic Motors, a specialty import center run by Richard Buxbaum, who has recently entered into an agreement with O’Gara Coach Company that calls for O’Gara to handle business west of the Rockies… Classic and O’Gara are AMG’s exclusive U.S. distributors. They can provide fully certified but otherwise stock Mercedes or they can boost performance from stirring to sensational.”
8. 

   Carter January 21, 2014

   Mapearso,

   Thanks for posting the information, it’s interesting. It however doesn’t really change the fact that the car was imported as a 500SEC and then modified with AMG parts; as I said, it doesn’t matter to me, but to folks looking for that extra step getting a AMG-built AMG is more important than the fact that there is little difference. As I said, Ruf cars have the exact same problem; cars that are Ruf modified get Ruf purists in a huff, claiming they’re not true Ruf-built cars. O’Gara was an exclusive distributor, sure. Did the car get built as an AMG in Germany? No. Does it matter? It’s semantics, really.
9. 

   audemars January 21, 2014

   @ Carter and Mapearso;

   This is exactly the same case as with the W124 AMG Hammer.
   Both, the US and German Hammers, are still Hammers. They both have sold at similiar price levels (equal miles and condition) – it’s a matter of need and preference.
   You can always wait and see if a German AMG comes to the market, but with so few of them around (US or German), what matters is condition and originality. US versions ARE originals btw.
   As a buyer, if you are holding out for a German mint condition AMG, then you are either a collector or someone that uses that requirement as an excuse, since you probably can’t afford one anyway.
10. 

    audemars January 21, 2014

    …. and for $20,000 dollars, what’s the big deal… ?
11. 

    RBYCC January 21, 2014

    What is and what is not a “real’ AMG…
    Always a question posed by the typically uninformed.

    If you were there at the time you would know that AMG was a tuner and in order to increase it’s sales it appointed global dealers / franchisees.
    Any car that the authorized dealer built was every much a “real” AMG as one that came out of Germany.

    If you are one who falsely believes that it is only AMG unless birthed in Germany then many landmark and rare AMG builds would be excluded.
    For example the two RHD Hammers and the very famous RHD C124 widebody built in the UK by Strattons.
    Or every Hammer built in Westmont, which Feyhl and Buxbaum would disagree with how “real” you or anyone else believed them to be.

    There was a reason for setting up global dealers…very basic and all had to do with the Vehicle codes of the country that the builds were being produced in.

    If the “Hammer’ engines weren’t sent from Germany to Westmont in the late eighties then there wouldn’t have been a Hammer seen in the USA as it would have been cost prohibitive to import, bond and federalize on top of what would be almost $400K in today’s dollars…

    A real collector with the capacity to purchase a unique pre-merger AMG doesn’t care where it was built as long as it has documentation and provenance !
    That is what determines market value.

    The discussed 500SEC is as all AMG’s, real or not real very unique and desirable…
    AMG’s are just like snowflakes…no two alike.
12. 

    Mapearso January 21, 2014

    RBYCC —
    Thank you for further clarifying
    Couldn’t have said it better myself
13. 

    trooper6 January 22, 2014

    All,

    I have seen this car in person and the pictures do not do her just. The color is a deep Orient Red and must be seen in person to fully appreciate. I would not hesitate to buy if I had the discretionary funds.
14. 

    Rich (RJMB) January 22, 2014

    AMG had their own assembly operations here in the USA. If one wanted a made in Germany AMG, then one could go and live in Germany.
15. 

    Rich (RJMB) January 22, 2014

    Here’s O’Gara’s catalog

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/phv8avrxkq9c4xr/OGaraCatalogcvrint2020.jpg
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/x9b5j8huq4egly5/OGaraCatalogcvrint019.jpg

    Getting back on topic, I have to say this is one of the more interesting colour combinations that I’ve seen in an 80’s Benz – quiet unique and doesn’t look like it’s aged at all. Actually, all of this car looks near mint.
16. 

    fastboat January 22, 2014

    @ Audemars, Rich, Mapearso, and RBYCC:

    You all said it right. Unfortunately so many people give their opinion and have no clue whatsoever what they are writing. This does not only apply to AMG’s. Air cooled Porsches seems to be in the same category.
    If I had less cars, this is definitely something that would be stored in my garage.
17. 

    Carter January 22, 2014

    Great comments, great information, great car. Thanks everyone for your contributions!
18. 

    audemars January 22, 2014

    @RBYCC:
    I have talked to quite a few people, and I’ve gotten different answers. Maybe you can give me your input.
    I’ve been back and forth in getting a mint low mile W124 Hammer or a 500 SEC AMG (like the one here, but with low miles).
    Are mechanical repairs a problem on these? The Mercedes dealer already told me that they cannot get any AMG parts for these.
19. 

    Harrison January 22, 2014

    audemars, I’d say if you compare this car to a Hammer you’d have a slightly easier time if something broke. But they are very different cars…
20. 

    RBYCC January 22, 2014

    @Audemars

    Not many mint low mileage 124 Hammers currently on the market.
    A very “minty” one just changed hands at $51K !!!

    Mercedes does not support the pre-merger AMG’s.
    Parts are still available in the global secondary market, many are NOS, but pricey.

    There are a few shops in the USA that have the knowledge to work on the M117 DOHC.
    As I stated no two are alike and what may appear to be an identical build may not share all of the same parts.

    The SEC market much like the car that this blog is about is still reasonably priced.
    Honestly this is a great car, very unique with much documentation…
    I’d snatch it up if I had more room…
    Great as a starter car for one who wants pre-merger AMG.
    Difficult to find a higher spec and documented AMG North America build.
    Low mileage not always the best as you may realize leaks due to seals and gaskets drying out.
    Higher mileage M117’s still run like new if they were maintained !!!
21. 

    audemars January 22, 2014

    @Harrison:

    Yes, I was very close to buying the Hammer you mentioned, just like I was close to buying the 500E Renntech that was being sold by Hatch & Sons and later was being sold by Prima in CA. The idea was to replace one of these, for a 26,000 mile 500E I have, but the maintenence/parts issue, kept me from moving forward.

    @RBYCC

    Thanks for the info. The SEC AMG seems to be a better option, and I believe it aged much better than the Hammer.
    This would be a car to add, not to replace the 500E.
22. 

    RBYCC January 22, 2014

    @ audemars

    If you can afford to, always better to add then replace….
    Following this rule I could have retired on vehicle appreciation alone on a few cars I traded out of from the seventies to the nineties
    Go figure !!

    A low mileage pristine 500E is a keeper…

    The “Hammer’ as in M117 DOHC in W124/C124/S124 chassis was a pretty cobbled up creation.
    Not anywhere near as refined as the 126 which the Hammer took much from and stuffed into the 124 chassis.
23. 

    oisaj January 23, 2014

    I can re-confirm – cars built in the US are just as much AMG as cars built In Germany or Japan. The parts were made, including some engines, in Germany. In fact some of the work done out of Chicago was much better quality than what was done in Germany, so much so that it created tension between the outfits. The cars were built in Germany (MB obv), the parts were made in Germany, and the technicians were often from AMG – Harmut Feyhl comes to mind.

    Best of luck with your sale!
24. 

    AMG5PT4 January 23, 2014

    All of the above discussions are good reading – the author’s and the replies. The issue about “authenticity” is a difficult one that has created volumes of Forum posts on many sites. The car in question has the requisite provenance and documentation to satisfy the most ardent of followers of the pre-merger AMG crowd. Is there a hierarchy of authenticity? Perhaps, but a German-born AMG is on equal footing to a Westmont (Chicago), O’Gara Coachworks (above car), Beverly Hills Motoring, Strattons (UK) or AMG Japan born cars. If a collector were presented with like cars – one from Affalterbach and one from an authorized installer, I suppose the Affalterbach car would get the nod. The analogy to Ruf modified Porsches is somewhat on point, although I am not sure if Ruf had authoirized installers outside of Germany.

    Of further complication is the issue about the extent of modifications that makes a “true” AMG – from basic cosmetic modifications all the way to drivetrain/suspension/interior/cosmetic (the Full Monty). However, this issue is more about the $$ value or worth and less about provenance – the greater the mods to a car, the more it is worth.

    The population of remaining “true” AMG cars is very limited due to attrition and to the loss of the highly critical paperwork or documentation. You can’t call AMG and ask if a car was done by them and all of the authorized installers are out of business and/or the records don’t exist. There are true AMG cars that simply don’t have the requisite documentation to prove authenticity. That is unfortunate. The recent $52k paid for the Black/Grey Hammer in Nashville earlier this month (Jan 2014) was a very fair price for an absolutely authentic AMG Hammer. I drove it and inspected the car in great detail. But that Hammer did not/does not have its original paperwork and it was unquestionably modified in the US – but that car is 100% AMG and one of the 13 Hammers ever made between Germany/US/UK.

    The Orient Red/Palomino SEC discussed above and now for sale is the real deal. It passes muster to the very passionate AMG crowd. Good luck to the Seller and congrats to the fortunate Buyer.

    Al
25. 

    AMG5PT4 January 23, 2014

    Audemars (great watches, BTW!!),

    To further answer your question about parts availability for pre-merger AMG cars – Mercedes/AMG simply do not have much in the way of remaining stock of original AMG parts. The exceptions would be the center caps for the five-spoke (aka “penta” wheels) and maybe a wheel or two left over. That’s it. To my knowledge, you cannot buy pre-merger AMG specific engine parts (like camshafts, pistons, quad cam specific heads/valves/intake manifolds, headers), AMG headers, AMG downpipes, AMG exhaust systems, AMG bodykits, AMG springs, AMG shocks, AMG Gleason-Torsen diffs, AMG floor mats, AMG interior wood, AMG trunk badges, AMG stickers, etc..

    If your car or one you are looking at buying is missing an important item, you are left with scouring the globe for rare used parts for sale (and the extremely rare NOS item) or making friends with an ardent AMG fan who may have a secret stash of parts. Now, if a car you are looking at has its orginal AMG bits, they don’t wear out or fail necessarily (except maybe the coil springs). The engine parts should last a long time with correct maintenance. The tough items are body kits (accidents, hitting a curb), exhausts (rust), badges (theft), G-T diffs (failure). All other AMG bits can be restored (AMG Bilstein shocks, interior wood, wheels, etc..). All other parts of the car are stock MB parts and the vast majority can be purchased from the dealer or Classic Center. The only MB parts that are NLA are interior color specific parts.

    Despite the above comments, many AMG bits have been re-created (camshafts, stickers, body kits, headers, downpipes, speedo faceplates). The really tough items are the rear exhausts and quad cam specific bits.

    Al
26. 

    Kushal Mukherjee January 23, 2014

    Carter,

    Could you please tell us your qualifications as a pre-merger AMG resource or even as an automotive journalist? You should be relaying the facts and citing sources which is clearly not evident here.

    You are lucky that some of the post contain great 1st level information. You should consider revising this article to reflect factual information provided.

    I also feel that all bloggers on this site should disclose this information. It will make it clearer to the reader that the blogger is not an authoritative source of information.
27. 

    Paul January 23, 2014

    Kushal,

    Thank you for your response. All of us at GCFSB are enthusiasts, most of whom have owned scores of German vehicles and are involved in various German car clubs of sorts. Rest assured, when we don’t have first hand knowledge, we do our best to research information and parse through comments from the seller.

    AMGs of this period, as we can see from the comments, are a hot button issue that lead to much debate, given their status before being absorbed by Mercedes-Benz. I have been involved with the Mercedes-Benz club for years, spoke with experts in the club and read much with regards to early AMG cars. It’s safe to say after going through the comments and doing the research that this can be considered an AMG vehicle, but some enthusiasts, as AMG5PT4 kindly pointed out, might see a hierarchy with regards to authenticity. Regardless, this is why we appreciate folks and their input. Feedback and discussion provides clarity.

    GCFSB has been around for six years. While we aren’t a major automotive publication, we do our best to provide engaging and factual content for our readers, evident in our strong following. Are we a major automotive publication? No. However, there are many sites and blogs like ours run by enthusiasts who do their best to put out a good product and provide a service to the enthusiast community. Our “About Us” page describes in further detail who we are and our mission to our readers. In addition, the popular automotive blog, Jalopnik, has featured our work in the past:

    http://jalopnik.com/incredible-collection-of-dusty-bmws-up-for-sale-in-conn-1442477921

    As an aside, I am a degreed librarian and professional researcher by day and take the issue of authoritative information very seriously. This is the reasoning behind features such as our “Week In Review,” so we can more accurately target vehicle values. Rest assured, we are always looking for ways to make GCFSB better and appreciate the input.

    For those wanting more information on AMG cars, might I recommend the following publication from last year, available on Amazon:

    Becker, C., Bolsinger, M., Clauss, M., Mühling, M., Schilder, H., & Peitzmeier, A. (2013) AMG 45: The Story – The Cars. Germany: Delius Klasing Verlag GmbH.

    http://www.amazon.com/AMG-45-The-Story-Cars/dp/3768834948/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1390501572&sr=8-1&keywords=AMG+45%3A+The+Story+-+The+Cars.

    Thanks for reading,

    Paul
28. 

    RBYCC January 23, 2014

    Paul

    Great book but far from the “authority” on pre-merger builds.
    Even MBCA has limited knowledge of the pre-merger cars.
    AMG Private Lounge is lacking in expertise.

    Bottom line is authenticity and value is determined by the buyer and most who are in the pre-merger market know what to look for.
    Consider AMG Japan builds such as a AMG 400E W124 were not discovered until a year or so ago…
    Still many builds/variants are yet to be discovered.

    I just built a replica C124 Widebody, a build not done by the USA AMG franchises.
    Period accurate and patterned after the only known widebody kit that resides in the U.K.that came out of NOS inventory of Duncan Hamiliton.
    MBCA would consider it a “modified’ build, something that “The Star” tends to frown upon.
    Yet I’ve received mid five figure offers from collectors in none other then Germany !!!
    Difficult to document pre-merger AMG’s when no two were identical..a far cry from post merger AMG’s which are production line..
    And yes I currently own three post merger AMG’s including a CLK63BS, G55K and C43…
    All great and limited production but still a production line product !
    You never see yourself “coming and going” in a pre-merger AMG !!!

    Ed A.
29. 

    Carter January 23, 2014

    Kushal,

    I have to say, I wavered on whether or not to respond to your comment. After all, this is a blog for entertainment purposes, and my response feels less than entertaining. Nevertheless, I don’t particularly feel that it’s fair to not respond – as your question whether I should be allowed to present an opinion on an automobile would stand for anyone to read without a response from me regarding credentials. Firstly, I don’t believe that I said anything negative or technically incorrect about the car. Some of it comes down to semantics, I agree, but the overwhelming response seems to show that history on these cars varies; and various sources claim that AMG “originality” can vary from three approved installed accessories to AMGs are only AMGs when they have the AMG motor.

    To clarify:
    I did not claim that either of these were right, or in fact that there was anything wrong with this car. I further did not claim that I was an AMG expert anywhere here or otherwise.
    I personally think the car and the modifications are great, and in the grand scheme of things it seems quite appropriately priced – all of which you’ll find in my original post.

    About me:
    Frankly, I hate name dropping. But in the interest in having it on record as a response to your question, here goes:
    I was awarded a Master’s degree from the University of Cambridge, England in 2004. My thesis was a study of the economics and development of the Silver Arrows between 1934 and 1939. I worked in both the then Daimler-Chrysler archives and the Chemnitz state archives (Auto Union materials were mostly repatriated and are now state property). I have been consulted by both VoA regarding the sale of the Nuvolari Type D and have presented on German technical advancements at Johns Hopkins University. I am currently a history teacher. Outside of work, I have been and continue to be a high performance driving instructor for Audi, BMW and Porsche clubs. In addition to teaching high performance driving to students, I have also worked in the instructor development program with the Audi club, teaching instructors instructing. I have been around rare, mostly European automobiles most of my life, some of which are fortunate enough to remain in my family. Does this qualify me to be a journalist? Perhaps not, but I’m not sure that I claimed I was an automotive journalist, either.

    At the end of the day, I really appreciate everyone’s contributions and this post has helped to clear up some questions regarding AMGs in my mind, while opening others. I find it very interesting that there is such a liberal casting of the AMG net compared to other aftermarket German tuners. Ruf, Alpina and Hartge all have authorized, licensed dealers that can install their accessories; however, none are considered fully-fledged examples of their marques without the appropriate original build plate from the tuner. It’s both interesting and counter-intuitive that you could drive your Mercedes-Benz to a dealer, order some springs, a steering wheel and some wheels, put an AMG badge on it, and call it an original AMG. It seems this leaves a pretty wide interpretation for what is or isn’t an AMG which is compounded by the relative lack of supporting documentation. Of course, that’s just my opinion as a non-AMG expert.

    I wish I had the money to buy this car, frankly, and I sincerely hope that the seller gets their due for what is a lovingly kept example of a rare car any way you slice it.
30. 

    audemars January 23, 2014

    @ AMG5PT4:

    Good observation on the watch. Also, thanks for the detailed and accurate info!!
31. 

    Paul January 23, 2014

    @ RBYCC (Ed),

    Do you have any recommendations or know of any books that cover early era AMG cars? I’ve been searching myself but the selection seems rather limited.

    Thanks,

    Paul
32. 

    RBYCC January 23, 2014

    Paul
    Unfortunately other then records which are no longer available that were kept on builds both in Germany and at the Global authorized dealers there has been no real compilation of data.

    What you’ll find is that the pre-merger AMG “anoraks” have over the years compiled whatever printed matter that was available.
    These old documents carry not just sales and marketing info but tech data, part numbers, installation sheets etc.
    Something that seems as basic as the documentation in the car that this blog is about can be revealing and may help someone else discern details about their builds.

    The pre-merger community tends to share info, parts, specifications and above all else knowledge based on experience.

    Carter pointed out the Porsche and BMW tuners were a bit stricter in what determined authenticity.
    AMG was a bit looser with some franchise locations such as Japan building unusual cars even after the Merc/AMG initial co-operation agreement.

    Maybe it’s me but AMG was not as “elitist’ as other German tuner builds of the same period, but yet evolved much further than these tuners to a worldwide brand.

    They were more of the ilk of the hot rod / custom car builders in the USA in the fifties and sixties…
    They would do anything a customer wanted from powerful engine to a gold trim package…
    Like they used to say..”speed costs money, how fast do you want to go”
    And as long as the authorized dealer put the sticker on and handed the customer an invoice, it was as authentic as a German build.

    If you look at the early AMG builds they could be rather crude and at times appear cobbled up…
    Not easy to admit you paid $100K + in 1980 dollars for a lowered suspension that was achieved by cutting the coil springs !!

    Every car is different and the enjoyment is dissecting it to find hidden treasures, the greatest treasure trove is the original documentation !!!
    But like the last three Hammers that sold ( W124, C124, S124 ) they reached a strong market value without most documentation.

    Ed A.

    P.S.

    My CV is unlike yours and Carter’s..I’m just a fat old Italian guy who became extremely successful with just a Catholic High School diploma…
    Cut my teeth on Super Stock Dodges in the 60’s, advanced to racing Jags and Astons, showed vintage Rollers in the 70’s and finally to Mercs in the 80’s…
    All periods when cars weren’t “green”, you could buy a McDonalds hamburger for $0.15 and Sunoco 260 was $0.32 per gallon…
    Makes me misty eyed…
33. 

    Mapearso January 24, 2014

    For anyone who is interested in digging deeper into all things pre-merger AMG, the website / forum AMG Classic has a wealth of information on early and pre-merger AMG vehicles

    http://www.mercedes-amg-classic.com/forum/index.php
34. 

    Vic Bindi January 27, 2014

    As guy in search of new/unique replacement for an E46 M3, I found GCFSB and am very impressed by and appreciative of everyone’s views. I find each and every word written at GCFSB to be informative and interesting. This discussion about the AMG providence has been great. Thank you for helping me find my next “perfect” car.
35. 

    Tuner Tuesday: 1990 Mercedes-Benz 560SEL AMG 6.0 | German Cars For Sale Blog April 8, 2014

    […] this year, I struck a few chords with my AMG 500SEC post. The questions of AMG authenticity were once again brought up, reminding us that pre-merger […]

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